Double twist in tsukis

[Richard Kimura]

I have always been curious about the double twist of the hips when punching advocated by several styles of karate. I have heard couple of reasons for it, but none which really convinces me as to the merit of the double twist. One was, in case the punching hand was grabbed you wouldn't lose your balance.
Can anyone provide some insights? How is it applied in kumite, in particular full contact style of kumite.
Mahalo
Richard

[Nathan Teodoro]

When you say double twist, do you mean forward, then counter rotation during a punch? I always learned and taught to counter rotate as you snap the punch, and the positive/forward rotation as you begin a punch. Can you describe what you mean?

[Richard Kimura]

Nathan,
I think that is close to what I mean. The forward rotation at the beginning and the immediate reversal at the extension of the punch. I have tried in a stationary "basics" position in trying to understand the principle of it but not quite satisfied with it.
I am hoping someone with more experience in using this method can shed some light. In particular its use in multiple and continuous combinations (i.e. straight punch followed by hooks and upper, furiuchi, shomen age uchi, shita zuki).
Mahalo

[Nathan Teodoro]

This helps a lot. My understanding, without giving it a lot of thought:
1) the reverse-rotation, just prior to full extension adds snap to the punch, thereby
2) increasing the speed at the end, which
3) adds power, but also
4) draws the hips back into position and starts the momentum to use the other hand, as in a double-punch combination.

This type of energy and motion is used well in a double-hook punch with the same hand, with a 1-2 combination, among others. To me, they are the same.

What do you (and our other readers) think?

[Jon Law]

Do you mean double hip punch?

If so this video clip describes it quite well

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRqfYwhsQdQ

While it's a great description and clearly demonstrates the power from this technique, it's possible to get more..........

[Nathan Teodoro]

Hey John, did you know you can actually embed the videos here? Give it a try.

[Richard Kimura]

Jon,
Thanks for the clip. It isn't quite what I am trying to figure out. In the clip the demonstrator doesn't snap the hip back. The image I have is centered on snapping the hip back at contact. Perhaps I can find a clip that shows something closer.
Mahalo,
Richard

[Richard Kimura]

[John W. Zimmer]

Interesting thread Richard,

I reviewed John's video and yours. I think I see what you are getting at here but slowed down – both videos are really similar.

My thoughts:

The first video seems to be trying to throw a punch without telegraphing the hand motion by rotating the hips first. This has the effect of increasing the range although not pulling the punch back.

The second video seems to start the punch first and then with the stepping motion - do a similar double hip to in effect increase the power.

I do not like either, because in each case the extra hip action is taking time and adding to the visibility of the motion - thereby telegraphing the movement in advance. That is what I am getting from the first and second example.

Now for my frame of reference, even though we still teach step through punches in Kenpo - we do not use them in kumite but rather for conditioning and having a good foundation of basics.

I guess I too would be unconvinced that the double hip movement would add any real benefit to a step punch.

[Bob Patterson]

Interesting thread; perfect excuse for me to poke around at the convocation!

I remember seeing the second video example and technique at a tournament. I saw a guy use it as a way to jazz up a board break in Tae Kwon Do.

Not sure is that is workable in sparring. It just seems to add extra steps that are not needed for a good punch.

[Tony DeMarco]

Richard
I watched your example on utube several times. I watch the Sensei start what I have been taught as Sesshoku Te: His movement to the point of contact with the target. But he stops it amost mid way. The hiki-te hand and the striking hand just reversing. But there is no change into the phase Fukakku Te: Penetration of the target. I see it as no greater force. The mass is the same. This would mean it would have to accelerate more quickly with a double pump of the hip. I down know if I see this, although his combinations do look very nice. I still tend to hold out that punching power still is in the ma-ai, and the timing of the punch in the breathing cycle.

Tony